Who’s responsible for bad flying on a clear day: pilot or someone on the ground w/ no control over the pilot?
This is a simple question.
Please … try to reflect, keep a cool head, and answer based on reality … instead of how you might wish reality to be for the convenience of any given moment.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/27/helicopter.crash/index.html?section=cnn_latest
What kinds of responsibilities do pilots have?
When do you lower your standards for a pilot’s responsibilities?
If you are still looking for someone ELSE to blame:
– Who put the crews directly in the area to begin with, the chase suspect or the tv station managers?
– Didn’t police begin the chase?
– Should Folgers have manufactured coffee causing more alertness for the pilots? Can Folgers be sued?
(Think of blaming the parents of a serial killer for the crimes of a serial killer, for instance.)
Who, besides the lawyers, will benefit from charging a scapegoat?
September 13th, 2011 at 10:37 pm
Pilot error. They should have been aware of their surroundings.
Experience
Report this comment
September 14th, 2011 at 2:36 am
It’s not a matter of control — the person on the ground is not being charged with intentional homicide.
The person on the ground is being charged with creating a situation that contributed to the deaths — that’s wrongful death under a negligence theory.
And your other “someone else to blame” arguments aren’t valid under the laws as they are being applied.
I personally don’t agree that a person should be legally responsible for what other people (the new teams) choose to do — and that’s an affirmative defense that can be asserted “Assumption of the Risk”, in addition to Contributory Negligence on the part of the pilots.
But whether I agree with it or not, the law has been well established for a long time that the person engaged in an illegal attempt to flee can be held liable for any foreseeable harms that result form that action.
And the wrongful death action is being pursued on behalf of the families of the people who died in the crash — that’s how wrongful death actions work.
If there are also criminal charges for negligent homicide, then that’s a matter of criminal prosecution. The DA doesn’t get paid extra for bringing more charges.
Experience
Report this comment
September 14th, 2011 at 5:36 am
I know I agree with you 1 million%, it’s bloody ludicrous to try and blame anyone other than the pilots, only in America, jeez!
Experience
Report this comment
September 14th, 2011 at 7:36 am
My opinion is that this was the fault of one or both of the 2 pilots. The fleeing criminal had no control over whether he had 1, 2, or 20 helicopters watching him run, any more than he could control how many dogs would have chased him if he had been running on foot. The pilot in command is responsible for operating the aircraft in a safe manner, and that includes overriding the wishes or orders of a cameraman who wants a better shot of the action.
My guess is that one or both pilots got caught up in the moment, focused on the action on the ground, and lost their awareness of the situation, but that’s just a guess. The investigation will assign the official cause at some point.
Experience
Report this comment
September 14th, 2011 at 9:36 am
100% percent pilot error. 85% of all air accidents are pilot error. Everyone makes mistakes. We all make mistakes every day, but when pilots make mistakes sometimes it gets them killed.
It may be hard for me to explain, but in that type of flying in the conditions they were flying in the pilots were 100% responsible for the separation of their aircraft and all others. It is extremely unfortunate….but I went to flight school in Phoenix and its airspace has a high volume of traffic.
I have never flown helicopters so I am not familiar with their procedures, but I have noticed that when 4 or 5 helicopters are circling an area they are usually all at the same altitude!! Why couldn’t they stagger the altitudes they fly at? I don’t know, but I do fly airplanes and aircraft traveling in different directions are assigned different altitudes to prevent this. There is no need for them all to fly at the same exact altitude…..actually it is total nonsense to me. They would have never collided if their altitudes differed by just 50 feet!
Pilot Jargon:
Any time you are flying in VMC as opposed to IMC you the pilot are resonsible for separation from other aircraft……even if you are on an IFR flight plan! Only in instrument conditions would ATC be responsible for the separation of these aircraft. Which here is clearly not the case.
Commercial Pilot who went to flight school in Phoenix.
Report this comment
September 14th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
Short of the FAA accident investigators finding that a mechanical failure was the main contributing factor to the midair collision, one has to conclude that pilot error was the cause of the accident. Both pilots were operating under visual flight rules, that is to say, see and be seen. Additionally, good common sense would dictate that they were communicating to each other via the helicopter air to air frequency. Although I am not privy to the investigative facts in the case, I am very long on aircraft flight experience and my educated guess would be that the pilots lost sight of each other and collided. Their biggest error was that they were at the same flight level. Television camera optics being what they are, for the life of me, I am mystified why they did not maintain a 500′ altitude separation. They accident smacks of pilot error.
Retired commercial pilot with 19,000 hours as pilot in command.
Report this comment
September 14th, 2011 at 3:36 pm
Two entirely distinct sets of laws and policies intersect in this case. First we have the FAA regulations and simple aviation common sense: the pilot in command of an aircraft is responsible under visual flight rules to “see and avoid” all other aircraft and hazards to aviation.
Second, we have the bizarre concept of “felony murder.” There are ruminations about that Arizona has an exceptionally broad felony murder statute. I’m not so sure. As a recent case showed
(http://www.theagitator.com/archives/027994.php#027994) when people die during the commission of or flight from a felony, some very strained interpretations of Arizona’s felony murder statute have resulted in this and many, many other cases. (Don’t forget, Miranda came out of Arizona, too.) However, this case is not really over the edge as lawsuits go.
Let’s not kid ourselves: Mr. Jones is not a candidate for having his picture on a trading card anytime soon. Once a decision is made to make someone go upstate for a LONG time, you can’t fault the DA, as a zealous attorney representing the State, for using every tool at his disposal to secure a certain conviction and substantial time. This is litigation. It’s a smelly game. Mr. Jones will probably plead out to something that sounds impressive and takes him out of circulation for seven or more years.
Kind of ho-hum.
Retired commercial pilot with 19,000 hours as pilot in command.
Report this comment