A question about martial arts philosophies in the East and West especially the instructors?
Do you believe that especially in the Western besides talent, size and raw strength alone are the key elements to being a great fighter and being able to protect yourself? I feel that while these two are certainly big contributing factors, they are not the number one as there are many other important factors can determine the outcome of a life and death battle. These factors are skill, courage, stamina, speed, and most important of all: wisdom, and to keep your emotions under control and properly harnessed. Size and raw upper body muscle are in my opinion WAY overrated and over emphasized around the world. Sure two fighter with equal or similar skill the one with more meat on him would normally have the advantage primarily in a slugging match or a wrestling match. Karate wasn’t initially a sport, but an art for real combat developed by people in Okinawa where they weren’t allowed to have firearms or any weapons at all. Let’s face it, there is much more to being a great martial artists than size or raw brute strength alone. There’s always someone stronger, and to beat him, you need more than strength and talent. You need to demonstrate that the assailant lacks: wisdom as he most likely will be overconfident, and you can use the advantages you have and fight only your own fight to use his arrogance, and make his strength and aggression work against him.
And when you lose a sparing match to a person smaller, or weaker than yourself, don’t make excuses about how you should’ve won so easily. That person might just a little bit better of a fighter than you, and had his/her emotions under control. There is much you can learn from other martial artists whether they are big, small, bulky, or slender.

March 2nd, 2011 at 12:36 pm
You haven’t really asked a question. So what are you looking for?
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March 2nd, 2011 at 2:36 pm
Im not gonna lie, I got bored reading what I can only assume did actually ask a question at some point during that wall of text.
My answer is write a shorter question and more people will probably answer.
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March 2nd, 2011 at 3:39 pm
West till I die
WESTSIEEEEEDE!!!!!!!!
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March 2nd, 2011 at 4:36 pm
You are correct to state that in the west it seems to be believed that you need to be “big and strong” to be good at martial art. Both are factors, but small factors. Skill (the result of many years of training) is the facto0or that trumps all others. You list portions of skill as separate, but courage, stamina (another small factor), speed and wisdom are part of that skill. I am a big guy. Therefore I have lost more matches to people smaller than I than bigger ones.. Hardly ever got a match with my own size. In all cases, whether I won or lost the match, it was the direct result of my training and that of my opponent.
So to directly answer your question, yes size and strength are way over rated here in the west, for the most part.
J
40+ yrs training/teaching MA
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March 2nd, 2011 at 5:36 pm
Look at what we are using martial art for primarily. Sport fighting. We put two people of similar rank (approximate same skill) and weight in a ring to slug it out. Then we make rules and time limits to take away any edge and a lot of the skills in martial art to draw out the fight and make it a good show. Who has the advantage now? Since you are fighting a person of the same skill level you need something to give you an edge. So we go for strength which is easily obtained with weight training.
Sports fighters have skill for sports fighting and how to draw out a fight. They train very hard for this. Don’t underestimate this.
It certainly takes courage to get in a ring where you will have to fight rounds and can not just finish a fight in 10 seconds or less. The chance you get hurt is much greater if you stay longer in a fight.
Stamina is the same. You got to be able to last your rounds.
Speed you better be asle to get out of the way and keep it up for however long your rounds last.
Wisdom? What would you consider wisdom?
You are comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruits but still very different. You have two ways of fighting. Both train very hard and I would not take that away from anybody but both ways have different purposes. The fighters that are training in the western world are very different than what they are training for the most part in asia. We call it Karate, Kung Fu, Tai Chi and Taek Won Do but it is very different from what is taught in Asian schools. Study the history and how the Asian martial arts got to the US. It will answer a lot of questions for you. Start with learning about a guy named Robert Trias and go from there.
40+ yrs training/teaching MA
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March 2nd, 2011 at 6:38 pm
See there are some discrepencies here… “Great Fighter” or “Being able to protect yourself” are in fact two different things. You can protect yourself without being a great fighter.
I disagree with factors in a life or death battle..
1. Luck, even a more skilled fighter can get caught or just get unlucky. Slipping on a stone, sun in the eye, just half a second too slow… even the best fighters in the world get caught.
2. Genetic predisposition. Whether you realize it or not, some people genetically are “flight” people under stress.. No amount of training, focus or what have you prevents the fact that some people just are not wired to stand and fight. They freeze up, fear over takes them. They can be the most skilled in the dojo, but still freeze in the face of real confrontations. Nothing wrong with it, it just is what it is. Some people also have a killer instinct while others just don’t.
3. Fighting Skill. All other attributes are negated or given creedence with skill. Speed, Stamina, Agility, Strength, you use your strengths to your advantage and work around your weaknesses, that is the skill. The ability to utilize your techniques at the proper time.
Wisdom however is probably you greatest ally in protecting yourself, because it gives you the insight to recognize and avoid trouble, more so than helping your fighting ability. I wouldn’t throw wisdom as in important factor in fighting ability, even as you describe it. Plenty of “cerebral” fighters have been overwhelmed.
Try to keep in mind the reason most people develop upper body muscles… to get girls. Most guys eat right, lift, and work on their physique not to be better fighters, but because it is what women want. Sure there is health benefits, but being attractive to the opposite sex is pretty big on the radar for men of the world.. both consciously and unconsciously, don’t forget we are biologically programmed to do all we can to procreate.
.”Let’s face it, there is much more to being a great martial artists than size or raw brute strength alone.” That is true about being a good fighter as well.. not news there.
Are you thinking that it is impossible to be a great Martial Artist without being a great fighter?
I would disagree with that, there are plenty of amazing Martial Artists who are not great fighters, but are amazing teachers. There are amazing Martial Artists who despite all their skill and ability lack natural genetic factors that would make them great fighters, or age/injuries and other such factors come in to play.
Now the vast majority could still protect themselves. But they couldn’t go around in challenge matches or even in real fights and take out a large majority of skilled fighters.
However, I don’t really get what your question is.
40+ yrs training/teaching MA
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March 2nd, 2011 at 8:37 pm
I always refer to the original way martial arts were intended to be practiced.
People want to learn a technique, work on it a bit and expect to be able to use it when they need it, as if they dictate what the outcome of a confrontation is going to be.
The reason people stumble in a confrontation is because their art is not trained to the extent that it becomes a habit – a reflex.
This verse in the Letter to the Hebrews made me instantly think of this:
Hebrews 5:14 – But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
I must have read this passage 100 times and last week was when it came to me, how this is the same in Martial Arts as it is in any study. “even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised”, and its reference to being of “full age”.
This points to doing something many times over an extended period of time.
This is the very lesson the original Karate Kid movie illustrates. Daniel had to “wax on, wax off” – “paint the fence”..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aYl7N0JPWs
These were all repetitive movements. At the point when Daniel was fed up because he was feeling as if he was wasting time, Mr Miyagi showed him how the movements became habitual.
If you rely on memory to help you when you’re being attacked you’re going be be in a world of scat.
How did you learn your Multiplication Table in elementary school?
Repetition is the Mother of Mastery.
Add to this the repetitive practice of OYO, Bunkai, Kakie, Randori, Digumi, Kumidi and you can forget about worrying.
40+ yrs training/teaching MA
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March 2nd, 2011 at 9:37 pm
Strength and size are tools to use if you have them. If you’re going to fight it’s best to be as strong as you can. Like it or not, some techniques just won’t work well (or at all) on somebody much stronger than you. So use something else if you’re fighting a behemoth.
Skill and agression are much more important though, especially if weapons come into play. However, to say that Western martial arts are based on size and strength is a myth.
To wit: “For he that is well instructed in the perfect skill with his weapon although but small of stature, and weak of strength, may with a little moving of his foot or sudden turning of his hand, or with the quick agility of his body kill and bring to the ground the tall and strongest man that is.”
-Joseph Swetnam, 1617
“That is why Liechtenauer’s swordsmanship is a true art that the weaker wins more easily by use of his art than the stronger by using his strength”
The Dobringer Fechtbuch, 1389
40+ yrs training/teaching MA
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March 2nd, 2011 at 10:36 pm
Rather than debate the different factors that come into play in any fight, I’ll say this. I have known many people that go to the orient often to train. Several go to Okinawa and study with different top Okinawan masters. They are full on stories of little 60 to 80 year old masters there demolishing younger, stronger students that are black belts of various ranks. If the martial arts were mainly size and strength, we would all be just lifting weights and running our mouths about how big and bad we are.
Well said Judomofo !!!
…
Martial arts training and research over 43 years (since 1967).
Teaching martial arts 37 years (since 1973).
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March 2nd, 2011 at 11:36 pm
Hi there
The simple fact is that size and strength is difficult to beat. Its not a martial law but one of nature. People can go on as much as they want about skill and knowledge but you still at the end of the day have to overcome these two important factors. What i cant stand and think is a complete and utter waste of anyones training is to attend a dojo that only focuses on these two factors. Yes there are people who’s training consists more of strength and stamina rather than skill. The arts are about developing a skill set that will get better with age and stay with you for the rest of your life. Your muscles wont! As for the emtional side of things. It cant be trained. You rather have it or you dont. And if you dont have it then only life can give it to you. You cant turn a softarse into a hard case by rolling around or hitting a bag. Life developes your tolerance levels over the years. School of hard knocks! The things that the east does better than the west is that they use the arts to turn the person into a better man and not just a killing machine. Ive trained in Japan every year for the last three years and agree very much with Pugs in that ive seen people in their 50′s, 60′s and 70′s doing some amazing things. But thats life experience and not down to the gym.
Best wishes
idai
Martial arts training and research over 43 years (since 1967).
Teaching martial arts 37 years (since 1973).
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March 3rd, 2011 at 12:36 am
The West was won with marksmanship in firearms and quick draws of handguns.
That is the “Western Martial Art”, properly developed in the West, just like Eastern Martial Arts were properly developed in the East.
A lot of the Western practices of sword skill and weapons methodology have died out and been replaced by learning how to conceal yourself as a sniper and kill people from 1.5 km away.
In Asia, the rate of change was less. But by the time it finally happened, they had a lot of still living TMA around that spread and grew, especially into the West.
Look around for videos of quick draw artists. Their speed and precision rivals that of any master in the TMAs.
Martial arts training and research over 43 years (since 1967).
Teaching martial arts 37 years (since 1973).
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